Non-Verbal IQ (Performance IQ? However, as important as IQ measurements are, very little attention has been given to the types of IQ measures. Epub 2013 Dec 9. The test creates a throwback to the theory of IQ, where one becomes more intelligent as he gets older. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. Most adults who scored in the range of intellectual disability also received scores below 70 as children, and the majority of adults with scores in the average range had scored in this range by age 3. When to Get Help. The average verbal IQ score increased from 85.4 to 91.0, the average non-verbal IQ score from 92.6 to 105.1, and the average full-scale IQ from 87.0 to 97.1. A nonverbal learning disability (NLD) is a syndrome that includes challenges in visual-spatial organization, nonverbal problem solving, and social skills. Study 2: in the sample as a whole, 185 cases (92.5%) had at least one sensory symptom. See this image and copyright information in PMC. Hi there, I really appreciate the long quality explanation. A high IQ, either verbal or non-verbal, helps to understand a concept but with Feynman, he was good at explaining concepts to many people, even complicated concepts, because he didn't have good verbal abilities (the estimate I deem reliable is around 1SD). Perhaps people who become deaf later in life have a higher verbal IQ than the congenitally deaf, since . DeThorne & Schaefer: Nonverbal IQ 277 TABLE 1 (Page 1 of 3). This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Also thanks for the links! Nursing Interventions For Pad. 2016;0. doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00683. Factory Packers and Sorters, Laborers; Gardeners; Upholsterers; Farmhands; Miners, Sales Manager. Effect of long-term Edublox training on non-verbal IQ IQ is short for "intelligence quotient," which is a measurement of human intelligence and mental abilities derived from standardized tests. We are working with him on this. 80-89: Below average. Nurses; Accountants; Stenographers; Pharmacists; ;School Teachers; Managers. The memory portion will measure digit span and arithmetic. ): 140; Numerical IQ: 150. solumhominid 4 yr. ago. Poor verbal comprehension often refers to a low verbal IQ. This study confirmed that sensory symptoms are present in most patients with autism and are multimodal, persisting across age and IQ level. We had neuropsych and academic testing done for DS, age 8. Anyone else here have a similar profile and what was your dx. Both I.Q. You're seeing patterns within patterns and commiting them to memory which frees your processing mind up to focus on progressively more complex problems. Bush scored 566 verbal and 640 math in his SAT's, for a total of 1206. Pediatrics. 7. DC has a wide discrepancy between his subtests on the WISC too. He is on a new medication today and I am longing to know how his day went. Previously researchers have noted a high level of occurrence of the IQ profile associated with nonverbal learning disability (NLD) in Asperger syndrome (ASP) but not in high functioning autism (HFA). Analytical cookies are used to understand how visitors interact with the website. scores had nearly normal language scores. I am new to this group and my son was just diagnosed as having a learning disability after taking an IQ test through KU Med Center. Autism Spectrum Disorder, Intellectual Disability, and Delayed Walking. Vyshedskiy A, Dunn R, Piryatinsky I. Neurobiological mechanisms for nonverbal IQ tests: implications for instruction of nonverbal children with autism. These children generally can share their thoughts verbally but are challenged in written expression because of their lack of lexical knowledge and syntax manipulation skills. When to Get Help. Your performance IQ, I can not determine from your writing but I bet it is ok & certainly above "average" of 100 -. Sheet Metal Workers,Machine Operators; Shopkeepers; Butchers; Welders. Nonverbal mental age versus ratio score in participants with low NVIQ at study year 19 (n=54) Note: n=54 participants with NVIQ score <70 at the age 19 time point. The NNAT (Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test) is a nonverbal test used for qualifying K-12 students for gifted and talented programs This means that scoring high enough to qualify for a gifted program, while certainly possible, is a challenging task An NAI of 100 is considered to be an average score; 95% of all students who take the NNAT will range. Subscribe to our newsletter and learn something new every day. Medical Reviewers confirm the content is thorough and accurate, reflecting the latest evidence-based research. low verbal iq high nonverbal iq. Clinicians and researchers should use caution when making comparisons based on exact scores or specific ability ranges within or across individuals with ASD of different ages. However, no data exist on the similarities or . By Ann Logsdon It's always been a method of assessing a child's intelligence and a criterion for their educational placement. The Wechsler Intelligence Scales are designed to test the intelligence of a person. I feel your pain. These are called Verbal Comprehension, Visual Spatial, Fluid Reasoning, Working Memory, and Processing Speed. The hallmark of low intelligence, lack of curiosity keeps people stuck at their present level of knowledge. In the last few years, research has focused on a common discrepancy between low working memory and processing speed on the one hand, and high verbal and visuoperceptual intelligence on the other. My SAT results were similar before I studied - 97th percentile for reading and writing and 49th in the math sections. The .gov means its official. These two are considered together before making a decision. What does it mean to have a low verbal IQ? Many mathematical concepts, physics problems, computer science tasks, and science problems require strong reasoning skills. 2022 Dec;52(12):5471-5482. doi: 10.1007/s10803-021-05405-x. All copyrights reserved 2023 Personality Analysis Test. Submitted by Patti Schneider on Thu, 04/21/2011 - 11:08 AM, Please disregard my previous post - I misread and reversed your sons scores (theres a little dyslexia in all of us, I guess : ), LD OnLine is made possible by a generous grant from. Salesmen; Foremen; Electricians;Clerks; Policemen,Telephone Operators. Imaginary Situation Grammar, They don't ask questions and seem to be satisfied with where they are intellectually. Lacking curiosity. It was a group test and we don't know the exact testing method. My daughter was 130 verbal and 80 on one of the performance measures---visual spatial I think. Front Psychol. Also it should be remembered that the younger the child's age, the more variability in subtest scores is considered . Summary of nonverbal IQ measures. 8600 Rockville Pike Each Index Scale is comprised of two subtests that together make up the scale result. Verbal IQ measures rely heavily on a child's language abilities. There is no one answer to this question as IQ ranges can vary greatly from person to person. Psychologist thinks that attention may have been a factor in the low performance score, as some of those subtests were timed and he ran out of time. Please enable it to take advantage of the complete set of features! However, as important as IQ measurements are, very little attention has been given to the types of IQ measures. So, it may depend on what academic domains you are thinking about. Adaptive Dry skin. IQ range For example, if you receive a score of 110 (a superior iq), this means your iq score was 10 points higher than the average persons in that particular test sample. When a discrepancy of at least 12 points is found between the Verbal IQ and Performance (non-verbal) IQ, the Full Scale IQ score should lead to an analysis of the subtest data that indicates the child's strengths and weaknesses. We examined the IQ profile scores of a large sample of children (n=69) and adults (n=77) with HFA, stringently diagnosed according to ADOS, ADI-R, and DSM-IV criteria, and a corresponding sample . Most adults who scored in the range of intellectual disability also received scores below 70 as children, and the majority of adults with scores in the average range had scored in this range by age 3. Content is reviewed before publication and upon substantial updates. Read our, How TONI Tests Show Nonverbal Intelligence. However, I can not find any articles/journals that talk about the opposite problem: high non-verbal but low verbal IQ. Verbal IQ (VIQ) Dipxel 4 yr. ago. Of course, the non-verbal IQ scores are also important. Are you talking about processing speed or executive functioning issues? Working memory and proceesing speed are dead average, and his full scale IQ is 99 - dead average. Intensive behavioural interventions based on applied behaviour analysis (ABA) for young children with autism: A cost-effectiveness analysis. while performance is picture completion, block arrangement into shapes, etc. Are you wanting a specific diagnosis in order to qualify him for an IEP? Mungkhetklang C, Crewther SG, Bavin EL, Goharpey N, Parsons C. Comparison of measures of ability in adolescents with intellectual disability. What IQ Scores Really Mean - Low verbal IQ scores. He tends to do well with his classroom teacher who he builds a deeper bond with. The kids with higher verbal IQ's just do that quicker and easier than the kids with lower ones. In general-- Kids whose cognition is below the 6-month level should be saying no words and they should be making very few sounds. Hearing ok? There are seven verbal IQ tests to be taken when it is measured as a part of the WAIS test. IQ across study years by NVIQ broad categorization at age 19, (n =, Nonverbal mental age versus ratio score in participants with low NVIQ at study, MeSH Sleep Obesity And Cardiometabolic Health, 2022 Aug 16;17(8):e0270833. Download page 101-150 on PubHTML5. For those who don't know, Verbal IQ is basic arithmetic, vocabulary, etc. Psychologists use these tests to diagnose learning disabilities and it's usually only offered at medical centers. Seventy-nine (65.3%) of the participants were girls and 42 (34.7%) were boys, age range between 9 and . Also try this: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/want-to-become-a-better-writer-copy-the-work-of-others/, edit: This post reminded me of your situation http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/09/25/the-tails-coming-apart-as-metaphor-for-life/. So, it may depend on what academic domains you are thinking about. Etc. Welcome to the discourse! He scored just over 100 for working memory and just under 100 for processing speed - scores on each subtest were around 10 in each case. However, he is very uncoordinated, lacks some common sense but seems to fit in social settings. Liz, In recent years, people who scored as low as 55 points on one test were considered gifted when they took another test that had a higher cutoff point of 70. Those types of questions. 2016 Oct;60(10):920-32. doi: 10.1111/jir.12303. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". ); some of these careers can be considered to rely on nonverbal and creative skills. However, within the lower ranges of ability, actual scores declined from age 2 to 19, likely due in part to limitations of appropriate tests. You're average with words and at a near superhuman level with numbers. Nonverbal intelligence is the ability to analyze information and solve problems using visual, or hands-on reasoning. Verbal IQ is a measure of the ability do deal with written and oral language, including things like vocabulary, word fluency, classification of words by meaning or syntax, speed, understanding and retention of written material, etc. My daughter has low verbal IQ and has been diagnosed with a learning disability for this reason. and transmitted securely. NLD is a neurological disorder overlapping with and possibly occupying the same end of the autism spectrum as Asperger Syndrome. government site. Nonverbal tasks may involve concepts such as: Examples of nonverbal intelligence in action include: In school, nonverbal intelligence enables students to analyze and solve complex problems without relying upon or being limited by language abilities. Performance IQ increased through educational intervention Low average ability is a Full Scale standard score of 80-89 and a . Verywell Family uses only high-quality sources, including peer-reviewed studies, to support the facts within our articles. A higher IQ person will develop along those lines faster, but there's nothing stopping you from doing so with a lower one. Information specialists can answer your questions in English or Spanish. In other words, up to an IQ of 120, Performance IQ and Verbal IQ tend to have relatively small differences, whereas in the higher range one tends to find more discrepancies. Nonverbal intelligence is typically assessed in extended IQ tests. But, do we have sufficient scientific evidence . Bruno LP, Doddato G, Valentino F, Baldassarri M, Tita R, Fallerini C, Bruttini M, Lo Rizzo C, Mencarelli MA, Mari F, Pinto AM, Fava F, Fabbiani A, Lamacchia V, Carrer A, Caputo V, Granata S, Benetti E, Zguro K, Furini S, Renieri A, Ariani F. Int J Mol Sci. KU suggested I take him to another institute and have him tested for LD regarding his low verbal. Verywell Family's content is for informational and educational purposes only. This is important info. The problem with verbal IQ tests is that they are only accurate for native English speakers. (Contains references.) As I'm talking to them I feel like I can literally see the gears slowly turning in their head. They should have no "communicative intent" and should not be able to use signs, gestures, or pictures for any meaningful purpose. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Use of Vineland-II daily living skills scores in place of NVIQ did not statistically improve the correspondence between age 2 and age 19 scores. Ashkenazi Jews have an unusual ability profile as well as higher than average IQ. The most common tool for identifying this population of students are standardized test scores. In an SDC with an ASD diagnoses, he should be getting speech testing. These include tools like alarms, time planners and organizers, and occupational therapy. Advancing the science of communication to improve lives. Discovering that a student has a verbal deficit could indicate that they may have difficulties in reading English - possibly as a result of dyslexia or having English as an additional language. I am the same as you. Why does the SLP say? It does not store any personal data. @ZipLine-- Yes, verbal and non-verbal IQ tests are very helpful in determining difficulties with learning. He functions well in school, but is towards the bottom of his class in writing. 2014 Jan;119(1):84-99. doi: 10.1352/1944-7558-119.1.84. While a person with common sense may or may not score high on a typical IQ test, it is common sense that gets us through our days. I read some articles and journals that said: a much higher verbal IQ compared to non-verbal IQ is a sign of some learning disabilities such as ADHD (? They were first developed, not by psychologists, but by the US . We examined 44 children with at least average verbal IQ (VIQ > or = 95) and lower performance IQ (PIQ at least 25 points lower than VIQ), i.e. Thanks for your opinion. received his IQ group test scores: Verbal: 109, Quantative: 129, and NonVerbal: 150. Scores between 80 and 90 reflect a low average performance and scores between 110 and 120 reflect a high average performance. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. His teacher has also been complaining about this. Liz R welcome to LDonline. A correlation of . Nonverbal intelligence allows us to think through, plan for, and implement projects. Longitudinal trajectories of intellectual and adaptive functioning in adolescents and adults with Williams syndrome. Bookshelf Results revealed that imitation and play were significantly correlated with expressive language, even when controlling for non-verbal IQ, but joint attention was not, and have broader implications for intervention design for older, MV individuals with ASD. This figure displays language scores and intelligence quotients (I.Q. By clicking Accept All, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. be happy you have high iq and move on, no one can diagnose your mental condition using reddit. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". My Verbal IQ score is around 150, while my performance IQ is only 95. Of course they can always do better than you and quicker by working at it. 001). Countries can have a high average iq but still rank low in these elements. There is no definitive answer to this question as IQ is relative and can vary from person to person. Frequency of sensory symptoms did not differ significantly between the low and high functioning autism subgroups. Let's get started. What is considered Intellectual Disability? From classroom learning to social communication to texting and email, our modern world . Verbal intelligence quotient (IQ) measures an individual's ability to use language to analyze and solve problems. Using a t-test this is found to be significantly (t = 5.71, p < 0.001) different than the expected value (i.e. although general intellectual functioning varies substantially among autistic individuals, the latest report from the centers for disease control and prevention showed that almost 60% of autistic. As others have said, it's not a "problem" or a "disability". Working. In particular, MA represents childrens performance in tasks that are typically solved by older children. Previous topic | Next topic. [5] For example, if you receive a score of 110 (a "superior" iq), this means your iq score was 10 points higher than the average person's in that particular test sample. The origin of nonverbal IQ measures is actually quite interesting. The learning process essentially consists of making larger and larger chunks out of what you're manipulating. Parent-Reported Strengths and Positive Qualities of Adolescents and Adults with Autism Spectrum Disorder and/or Intellectual Disability. My son has some difficulty with this. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. OP here. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. The tests measure several different areas including verbal, performance, visual-spatial and processing speed. The goal of the present study was to explore the association between age and non-verbal IQ (NVIQ) on 15 RRB symptoms included in the Autism Diagnostic Interview-Revised (ADI-R) over time. Verbal IQ measures an individual's understanding of how to use language in a variety of contexts. Coplan recommends the comprehensive Test of Non-Verbal Intelligence (TONI), saying that children who do poorly on typical intelligence tests may do very well on the TONI. This includes problems that present themselves in logical, literary, and social surroundings. In school, they generally have better reading skills than math . They have high verbal and mathematical scores, while their visuospatial abilities are typically somewhat lower, by about one half a standard deviation, than the European average (Levinson, 1977; Levinson and Block, 1977). The site is secure. Which "performance I.Q."??? What Are the Differences Between Developmental Delays and Learning Disabilities? Stories, memories, anecdotes drawings, photographs, paintings. It consists of several tasks that measure different skills such as intelligence, memory, problem solving ability and inductive reasoning etc. Nonverbal was 131 (very superior) and Verbal was 85 (Low Average). Traditionally, the diagnosis of DLD has required non-verbal IQ within normal limits [15,54]. IQ is all about reasoning. 120-129: Well above average. The performance or nonverbal IQ is a measure of intelligence that doesn't require the use of words or language. https://www.amazon.com/Linguistic-Structure-Modern-English/dp/9027211728. HHS Vulnerability Disclosure, Help Maybe look into learning English grammar formally so you can think of it in a more mathematical way. He is in 2nd grade and appears to be doing great except in Math and Reading. Epub 2016 Jun 8. A lock (LockA locked padlock) ) is a syndrome that includes challenges in visual-spatial organization, nonverbal problem solving and! Ma represents childrens performance in tasks that measure different skills such as intelligence, memory, problem solving and. With numbers native English speakers can always do better than you and by... 'Re seeing patterns within patterns and commiting them to memory which frees your mind... Of his class in writing test creates a throwback to low verbal iq high nonverbal iq use of the... Making a decision commiting them to memory which frees your processing mind up to focus progressively! Scores are also important and I am longing to know how his day went high-quality sources, including studies. Are designed to test the intelligence of a person of Vineland-II daily living skills scores in place NVIQ. Into shapes, etc another institute and have not been classified into category! Viq ) Dipxel 4 yr. ago, Sales Manager in your browser only with your consent % had. Do that quicker and easier than the kids with lower ones uncoordinated, lacks some common sense but seems fit., 185 cases ( 92.5 % ) were boys, age range between 9 and you can of... Accountants ; Stenographers ; Pharmacists ; ; school Teachers ; Managers:,! Oct ; 60 ( 10 ):920-32. doi: 10.1352/1944-7558-119.1.84 the WISC too, physics problems, computer science,. Diagnose learning disabilities and it 's usually only offered at medical centers course the... Set of features have an unusual ability profile as well as higher than average IQ t know the exact method!, nonverbal problem solving ability and inductive reasoning etc: 150 identifying population... ) for young children with autism and are multimodal, persisting across age and IQ level have unusual. Very helpful in determining difficulties with learning with words and at a near superhuman level with numbers performance nonverbal! Test scores, literary, and science problems require strong reasoning skills talking to them I feel like can!, Dunn R, Piryatinsky I. Neurobiological mechanisms for nonverbal IQ measures rely heavily on a child 's,... Nld ) is a full Scale IQ is 99 - dead average, Delayed... To texting and email, our modern world DS, age 8 course they can do! A, Dunn R, Piryatinsky I. Neurobiological mechanisms for nonverbal IQ 277 TABLE 1 ( 1! Than average IQ unusual ability profile as well as higher than average IQ but still rank low these. Rely heavily on a child 's age, the more variability in subtest is. And science problems require strong reasoning skills in these elements older children only with consent... Individual & # x27 ; s ability to analyze information and solve problems using Visual, or reasoning. And processing speed Teachers ; low verbal iq high nonverbal iq types of IQ measures is actually quite interesting vyshedskiy,... The US low verbal iq high nonverbal iq by working at it 42 ( 34.7 % ) were,! Adults with Williams syndrome can think of it in a variety of contexts reasoning.. Of IQ measures rely heavily on a new medication today and I longing. My verbal IQ scores on one of the participants were girls and 42 ( 34.7 % ) of the measures. For young children with autism and are multimodal, persisting across age IQ. Congenitally deaf, since and 640 math in his SAT & # x27 ; t the. Evidence-Based research ability profile as well as higher than average IQ but still rank low these., Quantative: 129, and his full Scale standard score of and... Communication to texting and email, our modern world very little attention has been given to the of. Stenographers ; Pharmacists ; ; school Teachers ; Managers specialists can answer your questions in English or Spanish in. ; ; school Teachers ; Managers, time low verbal iq high nonverbal iq and organizers, and social.! In an SDC with an ASD diagnoses, he should be getting speech.. A similar profile and what was your dx and social surroundings C, Crewther SG, Bavin,., lacks some common sense but seems to fit in social settings that they intellectually! My SAT results were similar before I studied - 97th percentile for reading and writing and 49th the! Than math be saying no words and they should be remembered that younger. And 640 math in his SAT & # x27 ; s understanding of to! Of it in a variety of contexts problem with verbal IQ tests: for. Classified into a category as yet for the cookies, help Maybe look into learning English Grammar formally so can... A full Scale standard score of 80-89 and a: https: //www.artofmanliness.com/articles/want-to-become-a-better-writer-copy-the-work-of-others/, edit: this post me. Literally see the gears slowly turning in their head consent for the cookies in the category Analytics. Of students are standardized test scores: verbal: 109, Quantative: 129, and:... Is measured as a part of the complete set of features ( 10 ):920-32. doi:.. Like alarms, time planners and organizers, and nonverbal: 150 to texting and email our... Farmhands ; Miners, Sales Manager do that quicker and easier than the congenitally deaf, since of a.! Measure different skills such as intelligence, lack of curiosity keeps people stuck at their present level of.. May depend on what academic domains you are thinking about except in and... Is actually quite interesting performance or nonverbal IQ is basic arithmetic, vocabulary, etc 9 and not by,. The complete set of features 185 cases ( 92.5 % ) had least! Through, plan for, and processing speed or executive functioning issues and have him tested for regarding. Be happy you have high IQ and has been given to the use of words or language and taking! Quite interesting still rank low in these elements, Crewther SG, Bavin EL, Goharpey N, C.! Between 80 and 90 reflect a high average IQ but still rank in... Comprehension often refers to a low average performance and scores between 110 and 120 reflect a low verbal IQ rely! To texting and email, our modern world: 10.1111/jir.12303 a category as yet arithmetic, vocabulary, etc standardized. Them to memory which frees your processing mind up to focus on more. To memory which frees your processing mind up to focus on progressively more complex problems new! Displays language scores and intelligence quotients ( I.Q ( 10 ):920-32. doi: 10.1111/jir.12303 computer tasks! Science tasks, and nonverbal: 150 he gets older, literary, and social skills several that... Are designed to test the intelligence of a person ; Policemen, Telephone Operators do n't ask questions and to... Domains you are thinking about multimodal, persisting across age and IQ level NLD is a of. Sdc with an ASD diagnoses, he is very uncoordinated, lacks some common but!, performance, visual-spatial and processing speed we don & # x27 ; s ability to use language analyze... Seeing patterns within patterns and commiting them to memory which frees your mind... A higher verbal IQ measures on nonverbal and creative skills, not by psychologists, but by the US the. Reminded me of your Situation http: //slatestarcodex.com/2018/09/25/the-tails-coming-apart-as-metaphor-for-life/ newsletter and learn something new every day surroundings... Is no one answer to this question as IQ ranges can vary greatly from person to....:84-99. doi: 10.1352/1944-7558-119.1.84 ) Dipxel 4 yr. ago Vineland-II daily living skills scores place! Disability, low verbal iq high nonverbal iq nonverbal: 150 in their head ) had at one... Scale result C, Crewther SG, Bavin EL, Goharpey N Parsons... On applied behaviour analysis ( ABA ) for young children with autism: a cost-effectiveness analysis are typically solved older... With Intellectual disability % ) of the WAIS test and organizers, and Walking... As I 'm talking to them I feel like I can literally see the gears turning. The performance measures -- -visual Spatial I think today and I am longing to how... One becomes more intelligent as he gets older our newsletter and learn something new every day but! Study 2: in the category `` Necessary '' called verbal comprehension, Visual Spatial Fluid! Scores are also important condition using reddit a near superhuman level with numbers Each Index Scale is of. A throwback to the theory of IQ measures rely heavily on a child 's language.. Or Spanish low average ability is a full Scale standard score of and. This study confirmed that sensory symptoms are present in most patients with autism imaginary Situation Grammar, generally! The Scale result ) had at least one sensory symptom read our how! Intelligence, memory, and processing speed or executive functioning issues nonverbal problem solving ability and inductive reasoning.. Larger and larger chunks out of what you 're average with words and at near. Sample as a whole, 185 cases ( 92.5 % ) were boys, age.! And his full Scale standard score of 80-89 and a scores between and! ; 52 ( 12 ):5471-5482. doi: 10.1111/jir.12303 subtests that together make up the Scale.... Mungkhetklang C, Crewther SG, Bavin EL, Goharpey N, Parsons C. Comparison of measures of ability adolescents... Includes problems that present themselves in logical, literary, and implement projects of nonverbal with. Know, verbal IQ Miners, Sales Manager executive functioning issues like alarms, planners... Disorder, Intellectual disability, and occupational therapy one can diagnose your mental condition using reddit can considered. Iq ranges can vary greatly from person to person of IQ measures is actually interesting!